In this episode, Chelsea Ryckis, Entrepreneur and the award-winning Founder and President of Ethos Benefits, discusses unmasking toxic positivity, providing insights from the workplace.
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Kelly Wisness: Hi, this is Kelly Wisness. Welcome back to the award-winning Hospital Finance Podcast. We’re pleased to welcome Chelsea Ryckis. Chelsea is a trailblazing entrepreneur and the award-winning founder and president of Ethos Benefits, a firm dedicated to advancing fiduciary-driven health insurance strategies for employers nationwide. Chelsea has been named the most innovative healthcare consultant in the United States for 2024 and Advisor of the Year by BenefitsPro. She’s the co-host of the Ethos Effect Podcast with her husband, Donovan, and producer of the documentary, It’s Not Personal, It’s Just Healthcare, which will premiere in late 2024. Chelsea regularly speaks on the industry’s most coveted stages including ALM BenefitsPro Expo, YOU Powered Symposium, and Q4Live. She’s the current president of the Orlando Chapter of LEGS, Ladies Executive Golf Society, which has grown exponentially under her leadership. Chelsea is on a mission to revolutionize health insurance in the U.S. and to empower women along the way. She’s a member of the National Association of Benefits and Insurance Professionals, the NABIP, as well as the Q4I Intelligence and Exit Planning Institute. In this episode, we’re discussing unmasking toxic positivity, insights from the workplace. Welcome and thank you for joining us, Chelsea.
Chelsea Ryckis: Hi. Thank you for having me.
Kelly: Well, let’s go ahead and jump in. So, what exactly is toxic positivity, and how does it manifest in the workplace?
Chelsea: So, toxic positivity, it’s considered an extreme form of optimism. It involves dismissing or maybe invalidating any negative emotions, reactions, or experiences from your employees, and instead replacing them with these false reassurances like, “Just be positive,” “Just get on with it,” “Good vibes only,” right? Think about all these posts that we see on Instagram that people are constantly sharing. And the essence of it is, it’s truly just a dismissal of the actual emotion or reaction taking place within the workplace.
Kelly: Very interesting. It’s a new term I had to look up after we spoke. So how does toxic positivity impact workplace culture and employee well-being?
Chelsea: Yeah, it’s got a pretty negative effect on it. And really, anytime that we’re repressing the dark side of our emotions, or maybe we think it’s the dark side, anytime we’re repressing something, it’s going to show up in other ways, right? Whether that’s absenteeism, whether that’s mental health issues, whether that’s poor performance, right? And actually, a lot of the research out there suggests that repressing your emotions, whether it’s from toxic positivity in the workplace or not, just the actual repression of emotions does lead to physiological impacts. And being a health insurance expert and somebody that’s constantly analyzing claims data, obviously since COVID, we’ve seen a ton of medical mental health claims, right? And this push for unlimited mental health access through telemedicine and access to therapy and all of that, there is a huge demand of employees on their employers to have more mental health coverage and access. And when you look at the claims data, you can see, the numbers don’t lie. There’s a huge issue with mental health in our country. And think about it: Employees are spending the bulk of their time during the week in a workplace. So, the culture that’s actually happening within that workplace, it’s really important to support the well-being in the whole person, if that makes sense.
Kelly: Definitely, makes a lot of sense. So, how can individuals differentiate between genuine positivity and toxic positivity in their interactions with their colleagues?
Chelsea: Yeah, that’s a really good question. So really, when you’re thinking of toxic positivity, it’s going to be a dismissal. So, if you’re a manager and an employee’s coming to you, and maybe they’re having a tough time meeting a deadline, or they’ve got something going on at home, and they’re being vulnerable and they’re sharing. And let’s just say the manager comes back with, “Well, just look on the bright side.” “At least it’s not X, Y, Z.” “Oh, don’t worry, just stay positive.” “Keep your head up.” “Don’t worry about it.” “Don’t be negative.” “Good vibes only,” like I said earlier. That dismissal, what that’s actually saying is, “My comfort–” this is what the manager’s actually saying with their actions is, “My comfort is more important than what your experience is. And what we’re seeing in the workplace is employees want, besides great pay, great benefits, they are demanding a good culture. They want to be seen, they want to be heard, and they want to be understood. And if a manager is meeting emotions, whether they’re negative or positive, if they’re meeting that with dismissal, it really causes employees to shut down.
So, the difference between– I would say, instead of it being positivity versus toxic positivity, let’s look at optimism, right? So optimism versus toxic positivity. Toxic positivity is going to include that dismissal, right? But positivity, or excuse me, optimism is going to be more like a willingness to show up to the reality at hand, right? Along with a belief that the future is going to be better and a willingness to put in the work to make that future better. That’s optimism, right? It’s understanding, okay, maybe this situation at hand kind of sucks, but I have the power, I have the tools to make it better in the future. So it’s an understanding of the actual reality with a willingness to improve it, versus toxic positivity is going to be, “Just get up, get along, get on with it.” “Nobody cares.” “Move on,” right? “We don’t want to hear your sad story.” “We don’t care about what’s going on at home.” “We don’t care that you’re going to miss this deadline because of X, Y, Z.” Does that make sense?
Kelly: I think so. It’s very interesting.
Chelsea: I’ve studied culture a lot in business. And what prompted me to get into this, really, was the early years of my own business, I had a lot of turnover. I thought I was this great leader. I thought I had it all figured out. It’s like, “Of course people are going to want to work with me,” right? And that wasn’t the case at all. Being a good leader in life doesn’t necessarily translate into a good culture with your employees. You really need to do your research and understand how employees want to be seen, heard, and understood, and how they show up in the workplace. And also depending on your workforce. If you have maybe some older generations, or some younger generations, or you’ve got a mix of everybody. So when we have this mix of generations in the workplace, it’s really important that leaders understand what each of them needs, because it is different. It’s a little bit different. But at the core of it, people want to be seen, understood, heard. They want to know that somebody cares, right? And versus toxic leadership, or sometimes you’ll hear it called a tyranny of positivity, where it’s just that forced positivity from the top down, that you’re not allowed to have a bad day at work. You’re not allowed to complain about things going on at home. And of course, Kelly, there is a flip side to this, right? We don’t want all Debbie Downers, [laughter] for lack of a better term, in the workplace either. Right. And as you are developing a culture within your company– and honestly, it starts with leadership first, right? You really have to be able to emotionally regulate yourself before you’re ever going to be able to emotionally regulate the people that you’re managing, essentially. There’s just no research out there that denying our actual experiences, whether they’re personal or professional, is helpful or useful. It’s just the exact opposite.
Kelly: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, we have to be real, right? I mean, we are all living our real lives and have personal and professional things that we’re dealing with. So, what have you done to overcome toxic positivity at Ethos Benefits? And how have you experienced this in your professional life?
Chelsea: Well, I was very toxically positive, and that’s why I care about this topic and I researched it, is because as a young leader about eight years ago, nine years ago, I found myself incredibly uncomfortable when employees would come to me with things that maybe I didn’t understand, maybe something to do with their kids. And here I am, a 25-year-old, no kids, running a business with employees much older than me. And I’m like, “How the heck do I relate to you?” Things like that, where I would meet them with, “Oh, well, it could be worse.” “Oh, well, at least X, Y, Z.” “Don’t worry.” “Keep your head up.” All that kind of foo-foo, surface-level type stuff. And I noticed that they lost trust in me, and that’s actually what happens. That’s the number-one sort of symptom you’ll notice in the workplace first is that employees lose trust in their leadership. So what I did was I started to, number one, go on my own journey of understanding my own emotions and realizing, you can’t dismiss your own experiences all the time personally and as a leader. But then transitioning people to try to get to a different emotion.
So, if people in your organization are coming to you, and they’re probably going to be using big labels like, “I’m stressed,” “I’m overwhelmed,” “I’m so busy,” “I’m too busy,” or maybe they’re angry because something didn’t work out, whether, again, it’s in the workplace or at home. When they use these big labels, our bodies don’t know what to do with that, right? When you say, “I’m angry,” or “I’m stressed,” what does that actually mean? And how do you really help somebody when they come to you and they say, “Well, I’m really stressed,” or, “I’m really angry”? So, what we have to do is we got to get a little bit more granular with it. And this is what I’ve been doing as a leader. So, instead of, number one, what I used to do, which was dismissing the comment altogether, or going to the rescue and trying to remove all the stress in fear that they were going to leave, instead of all of those things, I’m now almost kind of coaching them through their experience so they can find their own better outcomes.
So, the first thing that I’ll do is I’ll say, “Okay, stress is a big word. Angry is a big word. Let’s make it a little bit more granular. What are two other things that you’re feeling?” And then they might get a little bit more, “Well, I’m disappointed that I missed that deadline.” “Well, I’m disappointed that I didn’t get that promotion.” Okay, those are real things we need to talk about, and those are real things that we can have a conversation around, right? Versus, “I’m stressed,” “I’m angry.” So it’s asking follow-up questions to the complaint or whatever it is that somebody’s bringing you. Getting a little bit deeper, and it’s almost like encouraging them to explore it as well, and not living in this big, scary emotion, but instead getting to the actual crux of the problem, because we can deal with that. Why did you not get a promotion? We can absolutely deal with that, right? If we have transparent accountability measures within our institution, if we have documented processes for growth and career advancement, those are easy conversations to have because we have processes and data and KPIs in place that we can refer to, right? Versus, “I’m stressed,” “I’m angry.” Does that make sense?
Kelly: Definitely. Yeah, those are some great examples. So, what are some strategies employees can use to navigate and cope with toxic positivity in their day-to-day work lives?
Chelsea: I think it’s really interesting because there’s sort of two schools of thought with this. One is, a leader can only lead as far as they’ve led themselves, right? So, if you have a manager or a leader that’s completely removed from their own emotional regulation and experience and they themselves are stuck in toxic positivity, going to them and saying, “You are a toxic tyrant,” that’s not going to go very well. Or a positive toxic tyrant, whatever. That’s not going to go really well. So, I encourage in those situations for employees to lead by example, and to be granular when they go to their leadership with any feedback of hard things that they’re going through. So, instead of using those big labels and those big emotions that people don’t know what to do with, right? Your manager doesn’t know what to do with you being angry. Most of them. Some of them will, but a lot of them don’t. They don’t know what to do when you say you’re stressed, right? Go to them with the specifics.
So, ask yourself first, “What are two other options or emotions that I might be feeling in this moment and why?” And then go to them with that instead. “Hey.” I’m trying to think of an example that’s happened in our business lately, but I don’t necessarily have one because we don’t have a toxic positive culture anymore, and everybody is pretty in touch with their emotions. And I’m proud of that because I’ve had employees text recently that are just like, “Hey, I’ve got some stuff going on and I need a day,” and it’s great, versus them showing up in the workplace, trying to be positive, trying to fake it, trying to force it. People can sense when things aren’t authentic and aren’t real. They feel safe enough to come to me and say, “Hey, I need a day.” And they don’t necessarily have to tell me what’s going on. Sometimes they do. I trust them to make that decision for themselves, and then they show up better. We’re not dismissing our emotions. We’re dealing with them as they come.
And I think as long as employees understand that they have the power, if you have a manager that’s doing this to you, you don’t have to accept it. You can ask more questions and just say– so let’s say a manager says to an employee, “Good vibes only. We don’t want the leadership to hear you complaining like that.” I would just counter that with, “Well, what do you suggest I do then to solve this problem?” Super curious. That’s actually the key when you’re in a moment of conflict. If you are in conflict with somebody, the first thing you want to access before defensiveness, before being right, is curiosity. Curiosity. Come at them very neutral. Come at them very curious. And just ask, “So, if I can’t access this positivity that you’re talking about, how do you suggest I show up? Because this is my experience right now.” And they’ll either be able to handle it or they won’t. And as long as you’re respectful and professional, that leader will eventually have to start looking inwards and maybe seek some outside help, read some books to start understanding communication in the workplace.
Kelly: I love that. And that’s a great example, Chelsea, of some of the things that we do encounter in the workplace. So, what are some examples of successful interventions or initiatives that have helped organizations combat toxic positivity and promote that authentic positivity instead?
Chelsea: Yeah. I think the biggest thing is going to be, leadership has to embody authenticity first, right? You can’t go into an organization and say– let’s say toxic positivity is a thing, or maybe they’re not even toxically positive. Maybe they’re just negative, right? You can’t go into a culture like that and assume right away, “Okay, everybody now be yourself. We want everybody to be authentic. We want you to share with us your real experiences. We see you, we value you, we hear you.” That’s never going to work. Everything is reflective of leadership within an organization. So, if that’s the culture, what I just described, that very negative, what’s happening is that’s being pushed from the top down. So the only way to combat that is going to be leaders learning. Leaders learning how to be emotionally intelligent, leaders learning how to show up for people, leaders learning how to almost help employees emotionally regulate with whatever it is that’s going on.
And you’ll hear a lot of leaders out there that are like, “That’s not my job.” Well, my counter to that is, pretty much all leadership positions are chief accountability officers, CAOs. You might think you’re a CEO, you might think you’re a CHRO or a COO, whatever it is. You’re a chief accountability officer, and your only job is to hold your people accountable to what they do and get the best out of them. And that means being authentic. That means showing up as the leader that they need you to be. So, it starts with the leader first, and really diving deep into that coaching. And hopefully, organizations are starting to bring in experts or have their C-suites read books, things like that. Once employees see the leaders showing up a little bit more authentically, maybe sharing a failure, that’s a huge way to do it.
One of the ways that I gain trust with my organization is during the recruiting process of new people. I ask them for feedback on their experience through our recruiting process. And it’s so interesting because, obviously, I’m interviewing them. I believe they’re interviewing me just as much. But for me to say, “So, give me some feedback on this process so far, of this five-step interview process. What have you liked? What have you not liked?” And they’re like, “Oh, well,” blah, blah, blah.” And they share. During the onboarding process, I go to them. “Hey, I know you’ve been onboarding with this manager. Just wanted to check in with you.” I do this at the end of every week for four weeks when somebody’s being onboarded. I say, “Give me three things you liked and three things you didn’t like about this week.” And they’re like, “Really?” “Yes. If you have anything we can improve on, tell me now.” And I can’t tell you the amazing ideas that I’ve had employees give to me that have improved my processes and my systems because I asked.
Kelly: Right. I bet.
Chelsea: So, I get their feedback first. And then when I have feedback for them, it’s so much easier because they saw me accept, acknowledge, understand their feedback with grace. The interesting thing about feedback is there’s actually a really good framework that I like to follow for it because, here’s the deal. Feedback is the pulse of every organization, whether they realize it or not, right? They’re constantly looking to their customers of whatever product or solution that they’re providing to get feedback, but they need to be doing that with their number-one asset, which is their employees as well. So, how you as an organization or as a leader accept feedback sets the bar for how everybody else is going to accept feedback in the organization. And feedback is ultimately what develops this culture, right? What’s so important that we’re going to talk about it through feedback?
So, I like to use a framework. And again, this will set the tone for everything. So, kind of to loop back to your question of, “How do leaders become this?” I would start with asking for feedback, and be genuine. And then you show your employees, you show your team, that you’re open and you’re willing to learn. So you first ask. You say, “Hey, this is what I’m looking for.” You get the feedback. And the first most important thing is you need to appreciate it. Whether you believe it or not to be true, you thank them. “Thank you so much for providing me the feedback that I may be exhibiting some toxic positivity, or maybe I’ve been dismissing your emotions. That’s not my intention. And thank you so much. I’m sure that was really hard for you to say.”
From there, so you ask, you appreciate. Whether you believe it or not, you thank them for having the courage to say something. From there, you go into the acknowledgment and acceptance phase, which is where you say, “What I’m hearing you say is that when you come to me with an issue, I’m dismissing you instead of helping you find a solution. Is that correct? Is that what I’m hearing? Am I hearing that right?” And they’ll say yes or no. From there, this is a pivotal moment. This is where you either agree. So, you either accept the feedback as truth, or maybe you’re like, “You know what? That’s not what’s happening. Here’s some additional context that might help you understand where I’ve been coming from.” And then from there, you have a plan of action. So, if you accept the feedback, you’re like, “Yep, this person’s right. So, thank you for telling me. I acknowledge this is what I heard. I accept this. I think you’re right.” The last piece, number five, is act. “This is what I’m going to do about it. I’m going to go and see if I can get a little bit of coaching. I’m going to order a book. And in 30 days, I’m going to touch base with you. But in the meantime, I’m going to do my best to show up for you in a different way.” And when you do that as a leader, whew, people will start to really understand that you are authentic, you are genuine, you’re willing to do the work for them, and then they’re going to reciprocate it for you. And that’s how a culture transforms.
Kelly: Yeah, no, I love that. It sounds like there’s a lot of active listening involved there as well.
Chelsea: Yeah.
Kelly: [laughter] Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Chelsea, and for sharing all these great insights on unmasking toxic positivity, insights from the workplace. We really appreciate it.
Chelsea: Thanks, Kelly, for having me.
Kelly: And if a listener wants to learn more or contact you to discuss this topic further, how best can they do that?
Chelsea: They can reach me on LinkedIn at Chelsea Ryckis, so C-H-E-L-S-E-A, Ryckis, R-Y-C-K-I-S.
Kelly: Awesome. Thanks for sharing that. And thank you all for joining us for this episode of The Hospital Finance Podcast. Until next time…
[music] This concludes today’s episode of The Hospital Finance Podcast. For show notes and additional resources to help you protect and enhance revenue at your hospital, visit besler.com/podcasts. The Hospital Finance Podcast is a production of BESLER | SMART ABOUT REVENUE, TENACIOUS ABOUT RESULTS.
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